Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

FYI there is precedent for this kind of thing in the functional programming world.  PLT Scheme has a 
Scheme mailing list and also a Scheme-in-education mailing list, which tackles the problems of 
trying to teach Scheme to new programmers.  If you start such a mailing list for Haskell, I'd like 
to be on it.

Mike

Benjamin L. Russell wrote:
> So far, I have received three positive responses on starting the new Haskell-Edu mailing list, and no
negative responses.
> 
> In the latest response, the respondent suggested that I post another message to this mailing list
advising readers on how to react.  Basically, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, Simon Marlow,
had originally suggested that I ask for feedback on my idea from this mailing list, and wait for the
discussion to proceed to Haskell-Cafe, so for those interested in this idea, please respond either in
this thread or, after a few rounds, in Haskell-Cafe on whether you agree, disagree, feel neutral, or have
mixed feelings regarding this idea.
> 
> In any case, as the above-mentioned respondent suggested, rapid responses to questions on the new
mailing list will probably prove vital to keeping it alive.  Participation by educators using Haskell,
once Haskell-Edu is started, would be most welcome.
> 
> Please post your responses initially in this thread.  After a few rounds, this discussion will probably
move to Haskell-Cafe.
> 
> -- Benjamin L. Russell
> 
> --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Benjamin L. Russell <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>> From: Benjamin L. Russell <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com>
>> Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list
>> To: "The Haskell Mailing List" <haskell <at> haskell.org>
>> Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 8:37 PM
>> I am interested in starting a new mailing list on
>> Haskell.org, aimed mainly at liberal arts teachers and
>> elementary-level learners of Haskell, called
>> "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing
>> List."  This new mailing list would be guided by the
>> principle that Haskell is useful not just in research, but
>> also in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts
>> education, on a par with Scheme.  When I suggested the idea
>> of this mailing list to Simon Marlow, the Haskell.org
>> mailing list administrator, he suggested that I post this
>> idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting it here
>> to ask for feedback.
>>
>> The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would
>> be as follows:
>>
>> 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion
>> forum to serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the
>> uses of Haskell in education, such as in high school and in
>> introductory computer science college courses, as opposed to
>> in research.
>>
>> 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion
>> forum to serve the needs of non-computer-science students
>> of Haskell who wish to focus on Haskell as a language for
>> learning programming as part of a well-rounded a liberal
>> arts education, as opposed to an
>> engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education.
>>
>> Currently, there are two main Haskell mailing lists:
>>
>> a) The Haskell Mailing List, currently used mainly for
>> announcements and for non-beginner discussions
>>
>> b) The Haskell-Cafe, currently ostensibly used for
>> everything else, but in fact used primarily for serious
>> academic computer-science research-oriented discussion of
>> the language Haskell.
>>
>> Neither mailing list addresses Haskell as a tool for
>> teaching functional programming as part of a liberal arts
>> education, and while The Haskell Cafe is ostensibly
>> responsible for addressing beginner questions, I have
>> witnessed several instances in which new users who were not
>> familiar with the academic culture of The Haskell Cafe have
>> been frowned upon for either posting messages that did not
>> assume enough mathematical background, or for posting
>> messages that were written in a tongue-in-cheek style, and
>> that therefore did not fit into the serious tone of the
>> mailing list.
>>
>> (For example, a few months ago, one poster received a
>> private e-mail message from another poster asking the
>> former not to "pollute" The Haskell-Cafe Mailing
>> List for assuming that screen pixel resolution was somehow
>> related to the precision of an algorithm that picked points
>> randomly from a square in approximating pi.  Avoiding this
>> question required the knowledge that screen resolution
>> could be considered independently from the precision of the
>> algorithm itself, but while this point may be elementary to
>> mathematicians and researchers, the poster was not familiar
>> enough with the issue to grasp this immediately, and
>> received the above-mentioned response.)
>>
>> This new mailing list is intended to cover both the issue
>> of teaching Haskell as part of a liberal arts curriculum,
>> and of answering beginner questions about Haskell from
>> students who may not have a sophisticated mathematics
>> background.  The primary audience of this new mailing list
>> would be educators and students in a liberal arts
>> curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell for
>> studying functional programming.  Currently, the language
>> Scheme is often used in this context (even though Scheme is
>> not a true functional programming language), but Haskell has
>> recently been gaining ground rapidly as a programming
>> language in industry as well, and many students of Haskell
>> may either not have a computer science background, or may
>> not have a sophisticated mathematical background.  Posts
>> from such users may tend to irritate serious researchers,
>> who are impatient and hard-pressed for time to find
>> valuable information to aid their research, but may be
>> welcome
>>  in a more education-focused context.
>>
>> It would seem that creating a new mailing list,
>> Haskell-Edu, focusing on using Haskell in teaching
>> programming in a liberal arts context, and fielding
>> questions from students in that context, would help
>> increase the scope of Haskell users, and help spread
>> knowledge about Haskell to potential future users in
>> industry.  Teachers in a liberal arts curriculum could
>> discuss teaching Haskell in a non-research context, and
>> students of Haskell with a liberal arts-related background
>> would be able to ask elementary questions to educators
>> willing to discuss such questions, without being expected
>> to have a sophisticated mathematical or computer science
>> background.
>>
>> -- Benjamin L. Russell
>>
>> --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Simon Marlow
>> <marlowsd <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> From: Simon Marlow <marlowsd <at> gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing
>> list
>>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell"
>> <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com>
>>> Cc: "John Peterson"
>> <jpeterson <at> western.edu>
>>> Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:20 AM
>>> Hi Benjamin,
>>>
>>> Normally we create new mailing lists when the new list
>> has
>>> a narrow 
>>> focus and covers a clearly unoccupied niche.  In this
>> case
>>> you're 
>>> proposing a list that is very broad, and so I think it
>>> needs discussion 
>>> amongst the community before we create the list, so
>> that we
>>> can keep a 
>>> consistent strategy.
>>>
>>> That's not to say that I disagree with your
>> proposal. 
>>> But it doesn't 
>>> seem immediately clear what the focus would be, and
>> why
>>> haskell-cafe 
>>> shouldn't serve the purpose.  One thing that
>> isn't
>>> clear is whether the 
>>> list you're proposing is for people interested in
>>> *teaching* Haskell (in 
>>> which case I'd say it's a great idea), or
>> people
>>> *learning* Haskell (in 
>>> which case I'd consider carefully whether
>> haskell-cafe
>>> shoudn't be 
>>> serving that need).  That's something you need to
>>> clarify when proposing 
>>> this list to the community.
>>>
>>> So I suggest you send this proposal out to
>>> haskell <at> haskell.org in the 
>>> first instance, and see what response you get. 
>> Discussion
>>> should move 
>>> to haskell-cafe quickly.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> 	Simon
>>>
>>> Benjamin L. Russell wrote:
>>>> Greetings,
>>>>
>>>> John Peterson suggested that I send you an e-mail
>>> message requesting you to perform set-up of a new
>>> Haskell-related mailing list that I plan to
>>> moderate/administrate, since he said that you are the
>>> administrator of the mailing lists on Haskell.org.
>>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am
>> interested in
>>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I plan
>> to call
>>> Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to non-research
>>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by the
>>> philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible to
>>> non-computer science major students.
>>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other
>> mailing
>>> lists.  I have regularly read both Haskell and
>> Haskell-Cafe
>>> for the past six months or so, but the former is
>> devoted to
>>> announcements, and the latter de facto to research
>> matters.
>>>  Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly
>> academic
>>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this creates an
>>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer science
>> majors
>>> interested in learning Haskell.
>>>> Since John Peterson recommended that I request
>> you to
>>> set-up the mailing list on Haskell.org, could you
>> please
>>> set it whenever you have free time, as follows:
>>>> Name of Mailing List:  Haskell-Edu
>>>> E-mail Address:        haskell-edu <at> haskell.org
>>>> Description:           The Haskell-Edu Mailing
>> List: 
>>> Discussion About Non-research Issues on Haskell in
>>> Education
>>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to do
>> to
>>> start this mailing list?  Should I host it on
>> haskell.org,
>>> or just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org
>> mailing
>>> list service?  Also, how should I have it listed in
>> the
>>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists"
>>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for the
>>> benefit of other members of the Haskell community?
>>>> Thank you very much for your time and
>> cooperation.
>>>> Sincerely yours,
>>>>
>>>> Benjamin L. Russell
>>>>
>>>> --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Peterson
>>> <jpeterson <at> western.edu> wrote:
>>>>> From: John Peterson
>> <jpeterson <at> western.edu>
>>>>> Subject: RE: on starting a new
>> Haskell-related
>>> mailing list
>>>>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell"
>>> <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com>
>>>>> Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 12:05 AM
>>>>> Hi Benjamin,
>>>>>
>>>>> There's no problem starting a new mailing
>>> list.  Simon
>>>>> Marlow is the administrator of our lists - if
>> you
>>> drop him
>>>>> and email he'll do the setup for
>> Haskell.org. 
>>> Once the
>>>>> list is going, you can go into the wiki and
>> add it
>>> to the
>>>>> appropriate pages.
>>>>>
>>>>> We've had a bunch of these special
>> interest
>>> lists and
>>>>> most of them go dead after a few months but
>> you
>>> never know
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    John
>>>> --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Benjamin L. Russell
>>> <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> From: Benjamin L. Russell
>>> <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com>
>>>>> Subject: on starting a new Haskell-related
>> mailing
>>> list
>>>>> To: "John Peterson"
>>> <jpeterson <at> western.edu>
>>>>> Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 4:37 PM
>>>>> Greetings,
>>>>>
>>>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am
>>> interested in
>>>>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which
>> I
>>> plan to
>>>>> call Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to
>>> non-research
>>>>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by
>> the
>>>>> philosophy that Haskell should be more
>> accessible
>>> to
>>>>> non-computer science major students.  (This
>>> message is
>>>>> being addressed to you because I had already
>> sent
>>> the
>>>>> portion below twice to other administrators
>> at
>>> Haskell.org,
>>>>> first to mailman-owner <at> haskell.org, and then
>> to
>>>>> simonmarhaskell <at> gmail.com, but had not
>> received a
>>> response
>>>>> on either occasion.)
>>>>>
>>>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other
>>> mailing
>>>>> lists.  I have regularly read both Haskell
>> and
>>> Haskell-Cafe
>>>>> for the past six months or so, but the former
>> is
>>> devoted to
>>>>> announcements, and the latter de facto to
>> research
>>> matters.
>>>>>  Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is
>> overly
>>> academic
>>>>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this
>>> creates an
>>>>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer
>>> science majors
>>>>> interested in learning Haskell.
>>>>>
>>>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to
>> do to
>>> start
>>>>> this mailing list?  Should I host it on
>>> haskell.org, or
>>>>> just start it by myself using a
>> non-Haskell.org
>>> mailing
>>>>> list service?  Also, how should I have it
>> listed
>>> in the
>>>>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists"
>>>>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo)
>> page for
>>> the
>>>>> benefit of other members of the Haskell
>> community?
>>>>> Thank you very much for your time and
>> cooperation.
>>>>> Sincerely yours,
>>>>>
>>>>> Benjamin L. Russell
>> _______________________________________________
>> Haskell mailing list
>> Haskell <at> haskell.org
>> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell mailing list
> Haskell <at> haskell.org
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell