Re: Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

Just one nit to pick: AFAIK Haskell's type system is _way_ beyond simply typed lambda calculus, and 
is closer to system F (experts can weigh in here).  Not that this invalidates any of your other points.

Also, I surmise that a big reason Scheme went the strict route is that it made it much easier to 
handle side-effecting computations.

Mike

Benjamin L.Russell wrote:
> On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 00:58:08 -0700, Michael Vanier
> <mvanier <at> cs.caltech.edu> wrote:
> 
>> FYI there is precedent for this kind of thing in the functional programming world.  PLT Scheme has a 
>> Scheme mailing list and also a Scheme-in-education mailing list, which tackles the problems of 
>> trying to teach Scheme to new programmers.  If you start such a mailing list for Haskell, I'd like 
>> to be on it.
> 
> Thank you for your response.
> 
> It is interesting that you should mention PLT Scheme in particular,
> because my idea was actually indirectly influenced by the
> education-oriented culture on the plt-scheme mailing list, where I
> also participate.  I use both Hugs (in addition to GHC) and DrScheme
> frequently in studying Haskell and Scheme, and often write equivalent
> programs in both Haskell and Scheme.  The two main functional
> programming languages that I studied in college were Scheme and
> Haskell as well.
> 
> Having seen the usefulness of Scheme in studying programming as part
> of a liberal arts education there, I wondered whether Haskell could
> not also fulfill this role.  I saw no reason that it couldn't.
> 
> However, over the last six months or so, I noticed that the same kind
> of beginner-level questions on both languages tended to generate quite
> different responses on plt-scheme and haskell-cafe.  Most of the
> people there are educators, as opposed to researchers, and they tend
> to be less impatient and more responsive to beginner-level questions
> on the language, but there is less discussion there of research-level
> topics.  It seemed that beginner-level discussion and research-level
> discussion were each better served by different audiences, and that
> beginner-level questions tended to bore and irritate researchers,
> while research-level discussion tended to intimidate and weed out
> beginners, particularly those either lacking mathematical
> sophistication or who did not write in a formal, academic style.  This
> distinction seemed to become especially significant in mathematical
> topics.
> 
> Thus, I perceived a need for a less research-oriented, more liberal
> arts-oriented discussion forum for educators and beginner-level
> students of Haskell.  This is what led to my proposal.
> 
> As an aside, these two languages seem to have an indirect influence on
> each other.  For example, recently, a variety of Scheme called "Typed
> Scheme" has appeared (as a part of PLT Scheme), whose syntax loosely
> resembles Haskell.  Originally, it did not have type signatures, but
> these were added later, most likely as a result of influence from
> either Haskell or a very similar typed functional programming
> language.
> 
> On the other hand, in the paper "A History of Haskell: Being Lazy With
> Class"
> (http://research.microsoft.com/~simonpj/papers/history-of-haskell/history.pdf),
> the authors quote (on page 3) an anonymous reviewer as writing the
> following:
> 
>> "An interesting sidelight is that the Friedman and Wise paper ["Cons should 
>> not evaluate its arguments" (Friedman and Wise, 1976)] inspired Sussman 
>> and Steele to examine lazy evaluation in Scheme, and for a time they 
>> weighed whether to make the revised version of Scheme call-by-name or 
>> call-by-value. They eventually chose to retain the original call-by-value 
>> design, reasoning that it seemed much easier to simulate call-by-name in a 
>> call-by-value language (using lambda-expressions as thunks) than to 
>> simulate call-by-value in a call-by-name language (which requires a separate 
>> evaluation-forcing mechanism). Whatever we might think of that 
>> reasoning, we can only speculate on how different the academic 
>> programming-language landscape might be today had they made the 
>> opposite decision."
> 
> The influence of Scheme and the participation of Gerry Sussman in
> early academic conferences in the evolution of functional programming
> is also mentioned in several other places in that paper on Haskell.
> 
> In addition, the HaskellWiki page on "Continuation"
> (http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Continuation) specifically cites
> Haskellized Scheme examples from Wikipedia.
> 
> All this has led me to believe that Haskell should be fully capable of
> fulfilling a non-strict, purely functional alternative of Scheme,
> based on the simply typed, rather than the untyped, lambda calculus,
> in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts curriculum, too.
> 
> But first, we probably need an appropriate mailing list for this kind
> of discussion.
> 
> -- Benjamin L. Russell
> 
>> Benjamin L. Russell wrote:
>>> So far, I have received three positive responses on starting the new Haskell-Edu mailing list, and no
negative responses.
>>>
>>> In the latest response, the respondent suggested that I post another message to this mailing list
advising readers on how to react.  Basically, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, Simon Marlow,
had originally suggested that I ask for feedback on my idea from this mailing list, and wait for the
discussion to proceed to Haskell-Cafe, so for those interested in this idea, please respond either in
this thread or, after a few rounds, in Haskell-Cafe on whether you agree, disagree, feel neutral, or have
mixed feelings regarding this idea.
>>>
>>> In any case, as the above-mentioned respondent suggested, rapid responses to questions on the new
mailing list will probably prove vital to keeping it alive.  Participation by educators using Haskell,
once Haskell-Edu is started, would be most welcome.
>>>
>>> Please post your responses initially in this thread.  After a few rounds, this discussion will probably
move to Haskell-Cafe.
>>>
>>> -- Benjamin L. Russell
>>>
>>> --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Benjamin L. Russell <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> From: Benjamin L. Russell <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com>
>>>> Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list
>>>> To: "The Haskell Mailing List" <haskell <at> haskell.org>
>>>> Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 8:37 PM
>>>> I am interested in starting a new mailing list on
>>>> Haskell.org, aimed mainly at liberal arts teachers and
>>>> elementary-level learners of Haskell, called
>>>> "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing
>>>> List."  This new mailing list would be guided by the
>>>> principle that Haskell is useful not just in research, but
>>>> also in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts
>>>> education, on a par with Scheme.  When I suggested the idea
>>>> of this mailing list to Simon Marlow, the Haskell.org
>>>> mailing list administrator, he suggested that I post this
>>>> idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting it here
>>>> to ask for feedback.
>>>>
>>>> The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would
>>>> be as follows:
>>>>
>>>> 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion
>>>> forum to serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the
>>>> uses of Haskell in education, such as in high school and in
>>>> introductory computer science college courses, as opposed to
>>>> in research.
>>>>
>>>> 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion
>>>> forum to serve the needs of non-computer-science students
>>>> of Haskell who wish to focus on Haskell as a language for
>>>> learning programming as part of a well-rounded a liberal
>>>> arts education, as opposed to an
>>>> engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education.
>>>>
>>>> Currently, there are two main Haskell mailing lists:
>>>>
>>>> a) The Haskell Mailing List, currently used mainly for
>>>> announcements and for non-beginner discussions
>>>>
>>>> b) The Haskell-Cafe, currently ostensibly used for
>>>> everything else, but in fact used primarily for serious
>>>> academic computer-science research-oriented discussion of
>>>> the language Haskell.
>>>>
>>>> Neither mailing list addresses Haskell as a tool for
>>>> teaching functional programming as part of a liberal arts
>>>> education, and while The Haskell Cafe is ostensibly
>>>> responsible for addressing beginner questions, I have
>>>> witnessed several instances in which new users who were not
>>>> familiar with the academic culture of The Haskell Cafe have
>>>> been frowned upon for either posting messages that did not
>>>> assume enough mathematical background, or for posting
>>>> messages that were written in a tongue-in-cheek style, and
>>>> that therefore did not fit into the serious tone of the
>>>> mailing list.
>>>>
>>>> (For example, a few months ago, one poster received a
>>>> private e-mail message from another poster asking the
>>>> former not to "pollute" The Haskell-Cafe Mailing
>>>> List for assuming that screen pixel resolution was somehow
>>>> related to the precision of an algorithm that picked points
>>>> randomly from a square in approximating pi.  Avoiding this
>>>> question required the knowledge that screen resolution
>>>> could be considered independently from the precision of the
>>>> algorithm itself, but while this point may be elementary to
>>>> mathematicians and researchers, the poster was not familiar
>>>> enough with the issue to grasp this immediately, and
>>>> received the above-mentioned response.)
>>>>
>>>> This new mailing list is intended to cover both the issue
>>>> of teaching Haskell as part of a liberal arts curriculum,
>>>> and of answering beginner questions about Haskell from
>>>> students who may not have a sophisticated mathematics
>>>> background.  The primary audience of this new mailing list
>>>> would be educators and students in a liberal arts
>>>> curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell for
>>>> studying functional programming.  Currently, the language
>>>> Scheme is often used in this context (even though Scheme is
>>>> not a true functional programming language), but Haskell has
>>>> recently been gaining ground rapidly as a programming
>>>> language in industry as well, and many students of Haskell
>>>> may either not have a computer science background, or may
>>>> not have a sophisticated mathematical background.  Posts
>>>> from such users may tend to irritate serious researchers,
>>>> who are impatient and hard-pressed for time to find
>>>> valuable information to aid their research, but may be
>>>> welcome
>>>>  in a more education-focused context.
>>>>
>>>> It would seem that creating a new mailing list,
>>>> Haskell-Edu, focusing on using Haskell in teaching
>>>> programming in a liberal arts context, and fielding
>>>> questions from students in that context, would help
>>>> increase the scope of Haskell users, and help spread
>>>> knowledge about Haskell to potential future users in
>>>> industry.  Teachers in a liberal arts curriculum could
>>>> discuss teaching Haskell in a non-research context, and
>>>> students of Haskell with a liberal arts-related background
>>>> would be able to ask elementary questions to educators
>>>> willing to discuss such questions, without being expected
>>>> to have a sophisticated mathematical or computer science
>>>> background.
>>>>
>>>> -- Benjamin L. Russell
>>>>
>>>> --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Simon Marlow
>>>> <marlowsd <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> From: Simon Marlow <marlowsd <at> gmail.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing
>>>> list
>>>>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell"
>>>> <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com>
>>>>> Cc: "John Peterson"
>>>> <jpeterson <at> western.edu>
>>>>> Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:20 AM
>>>>> Hi Benjamin,
>>>>>
>>>>> Normally we create new mailing lists when the new list
>>>> has
>>>>> a narrow 
>>>>> focus and covers a clearly unoccupied niche.  In this
>>>> case
>>>>> you're 
>>>>> proposing a list that is very broad, and so I think it
>>>>> needs discussion 
>>>>> amongst the community before we create the list, so
>>>> that we
>>>>> can keep a 
>>>>> consistent strategy.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's not to say that I disagree with your
>>>> proposal. 
>>>>> But it doesn't 
>>>>> seem immediately clear what the focus would be, and
>>>> why
>>>>> haskell-cafe 
>>>>> shouldn't serve the purpose.  One thing that
>>>> isn't
>>>>> clear is whether the 
>>>>> list you're proposing is for people interested in
>>>>> *teaching* Haskell (in 
>>>>> which case I'd say it's a great idea), or
>>>> people
>>>>> *learning* Haskell (in 
>>>>> which case I'd consider carefully whether
>>>> haskell-cafe
>>>>> shoudn't be 
>>>>> serving that need).  That's something you need to
>>>>> clarify when proposing 
>>>>> this list to the community.
>>>>>
>>>>> So I suggest you send this proposal out to
>>>>> haskell <at> haskell.org in the 
>>>>> first instance, and see what response you get. 
>>>> Discussion
>>>>> should move 
>>>>> to haskell-cafe quickly.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> 	Simon
>>>>>
>>>>> Benjamin L. Russell wrote:
>>>>>> Greetings,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Peterson suggested that I send you an e-mail
>>>>> message requesting you to perform set-up of a new
>>>>> Haskell-related mailing list that I plan to
>>>>> moderate/administrate, since he said that you are the
>>>>> administrator of the mailing lists on Haskell.org.
>>>>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am
>>>> interested in
>>>>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I plan
>>>> to call
>>>>> Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to non-research
>>>>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by the
>>>>> philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible to
>>>>> non-computer science major students.
>>>>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other
>>>> mailing
>>>>> lists.  I have regularly read both Haskell and
>>>> Haskell-Cafe
>>>>> for the past six months or so, but the former is
>>>> devoted to
>>>>> announcements, and the latter de facto to research
>>>> matters.
>>>>>  Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly
>>>> academic
>>>>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this creates an
>>>>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer science
>>>> majors
>>>>> interested in learning Haskell.
>>>>>> Since John Peterson recommended that I request
>>>> you to
>>>>> set-up the mailing list on Haskell.org, could you
>>>> please
>>>>> set it whenever you have free time, as follows:
>>>>>> Name of Mailing List:  Haskell-Edu
>>>>>> E-mail Address:        haskell-edu <at> haskell.org
>>>>>> Description:           The Haskell-Edu Mailing
>>>> List: 
>>>>> Discussion About Non-research Issues on Haskell in
>>>>> Education
>>>>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to do
>>>> to
>>>>> start this mailing list?  Should I host it on
>>>> haskell.org,
>>>>> or just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org
>>>> mailing
>>>>> list service?  Also, how should I have it listed in
>>>> the
>>>>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists"
>>>>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for the
>>>>> benefit of other members of the Haskell community?
>>>>>> Thank you very much for your time and
>>>> cooperation.
>>>>>> Sincerely yours,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Benjamin L. Russell
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Peterson
>>>>> <jpeterson <at> western.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>> From: John Peterson
>>>> <jpeterson <at> western.edu>
>>>>>>> Subject: RE: on starting a new
>>>> Haskell-related
>>>>> mailing list
>>>>>>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell"
>>>>> <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com>
>>>>>>> Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 12:05 AM
>>>>>>> Hi Benjamin,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's no problem starting a new mailing
>>>>> list.  Simon
>>>>>>> Marlow is the administrator of our lists - if
>>>> you
>>>>> drop him
>>>>>>> and email he'll do the setup for
>>>> Haskell.org. 
>>>>> Once the
>>>>>>> list is going, you can go into the wiki and
>>>> add it
>>>>> to the
>>>>>>> appropriate pages.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We've had a bunch of these special
>>>> interest
>>>>> lists and
>>>>>>> most of them go dead after a few months but
>>>> you
>>>>> never know
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    John
>>>>>> --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Benjamin L. Russell
>>>>> <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> From: Benjamin L. Russell
>>>>> <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: on starting a new Haskell-related
>>>> mailing
>>>>> list
>>>>>>> To: "John Peterson"
>>>>> <jpeterson <at> western.edu>
>>>>>>> Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 4:37 PM
>>>>>>> Greetings,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am
>>>>> interested in
>>>>>>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which
>>>> I
>>>>> plan to
>>>>>>> call Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to
>>>>> non-research
>>>>>>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by
>>>> the
>>>>>>> philosophy that Haskell should be more
>>>> accessible
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> non-computer science major students.  (This
>>>>> message is
>>>>>>> being addressed to you because I had already
>>>> sent
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> portion below twice to other administrators
>>>> at
>>>>> Haskell.org,
>>>>>>> first to mailman-owner <at> haskell.org, and then
>>>> to
>>>>>>> simonmarhaskell <at> gmail.com, but had not
>>>> received a
>>>>> response
>>>>>>> on either occasion.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other
>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>> lists.  I have regularly read both Haskell
>>>> and
>>>>> Haskell-Cafe
>>>>>>> for the past six months or so, but the former
>>>> is
>>>>> devoted to
>>>>>>> announcements, and the latter de facto to
>>>> research
>>>>> matters.
>>>>>>>  Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is
>>>> overly
>>>>> academic
>>>>>>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this
>>>>> creates an
>>>>>>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer
>>>>> science majors
>>>>>>> interested in learning Haskell.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to
>>>> do to
>>>>> start
>>>>>>> this mailing list?  Should I host it on
>>>>> haskell.org, or
>>>>>>> just start it by myself using a
>>>> non-Haskell.org
>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>> list service?  Also, how should I have it
>>>> listed
>>>>> in the
>>>>>>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists"
>>>>>>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo)
>>>> page for
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> benefit of other members of the Haskell
>>>> community?
>>>>>>> Thank you very much for your time and
>>>> cooperation.
>>>>>>> Sincerely yours,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Benjamin L. Russell
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Haskell mailing list
>>>> Haskell <at> haskell.org
>>>> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Haskell mailing list
>>> Haskell <at> haskell.org
>>> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell mailing list
> Haskell <at> haskell.org
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell