Re: on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list

On Jul 1, 2008, at 1:37 PM, Benjamin L. Russell wrote:

> I am interested in starting a new mailing list on Haskell.org, aimed  
> mainly at liberal arts teachers and elementary-level learners of  
> Haskell, called "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing  
> List."  This new mailing list would be guided by the principle that  
> Haskell is useful not just in research, but also in teaching  
> programming as part of a liberal arts education, on a par with  
> Scheme.  When I suggested the idea of this mailing list to Simon  
> Marlow, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, he suggested  
> that I post this idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting  
> it here to ask for feedback.
>
> The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would be as  
> follows:
>
> 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion forum to  
> serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the uses of Haskell in  
> education, such as in high school and in introductory computer  
> science college courses, as opposed to in research.
>
> 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion forum to  
> serve the needs of non-computer-science students of Haskell who wish  
> to focus on Haskell as a language for learning programming as part  
> of a well-rounded a liberal arts education, as opposed to an  
> engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education.
>
> Currently, there are two main Haskell mailing lists:
>
> a) The Haskell Mailing List, currently used mainly for announcements  
> and for non-beginner discussions
>
> b) The Haskell-Cafe, currently ostensibly used for everything else,  
> but in fact used primarily for serious academic computer-science  
> research-oriented discussion of the language Haskell.
>
> Neither mailing list addresses Haskell as a tool for teaching  
> functional programming as part of a liberal arts education, and  
> while The Haskell Cafe is ostensibly responsible for addressing  
> beginner questions, I have witnessed several instances in which new  
> users who were not familiar with the academic culture of The Haskell  
> Cafe have been frowned upon for either posting messages that did not  
> assume enough mathematical background, or for posting messages that  
> were written in a tongue-in-cheek style, and that therefore did not  
> fit into the serious tone of the mailing list.
>
> (For example, a few months ago, one poster received a private e-mail  
> message from another poster asking the former not to "pollute" The  
> Haskell-Cafe Mailing List for assuming that screen pixel resolution  
> was somehow related to the precision of an algorithm that picked  
> points randomly from a square in approximating pi.  Avoiding this  
> question required the knowledge that screen resolution could be  
> considered independently from the precision of the algorithm itself,  
> but while this point may be elementary to mathematicians and  
> researchers, the poster was not familiar enough with the issue to  
> grasp this immediately, and received the above-mentioned response.)
>
> This new mailing list is intended to cover both the issue of  
> teaching Haskell as part of a liberal arts curriculum, and of  
> answering beginner questions about Haskell from students who may not  
> have a sophisticated mathematics background.  The primary audience  
> of this new mailing list would be educators and students in a  
> liberal arts curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell for  
> studying functional programming.  Currently, the language Scheme is  
> often used in this context (even though Scheme is not a true  
> functional programming language), but Haskell has recently been  
> gaining ground rapidly as a programming language in industry as  
> well, and many students of Haskell may either not have a computer  
> science background, or may not have a sophisticated mathematical  
> background.  Posts from such users may tend to irritate serious  
> researchers, who are impatient and hard-pressed for time to find  
> valuable information to aid their research, but may be welcome
> in a more education-focused context.
>
> It would seem that creating a new mailing list, Haskell-Edu,  
> focusing on using Haskell in teaching programming in a liberal arts  
> context, and fielding questions from students in that context, would  
> help increase the scope of Haskell users, and help spread knowledge  
> about Haskell to potential future users in industry.  Teachers in a  
> liberal arts curriculum could discuss teaching Haskell in a non- 
> research context, and students of Haskell with a liberal arts- 
> related background would be able to ask elementary questions to  
> educators willing to discuss such questions, without being expected  
> to have a sophisticated mathematical or computer science background.
>
Hi all,

I am all for a separate channel or resource for beginners in Haskell.  
I can imagine that even the run-of-the-mill discussions in the  
existing venues
will scare them off. It might also be a good place for educators and  
students to talk about their experiences in teaching and being taught  
Haskell.
E.g., what kind of assignments work, which don't.

Also it will give me a venue to bring Helium to the attention of these  
beginners and their educators.
I am currently bringing the Helium compiler up to speed (but this is  
not a formal announcement).
However, if you simply cannot wait, set your browser to http://www.cs.uu.nl/wiki/Helium 
  .

cheers,
Jur

> --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Simon Marlow <marlowsd <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Simon Marlow <marlowsd <at> gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing list
>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell" <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com>
>> Cc: "John Peterson" <jpeterson <at> western.edu>
>> Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:20 AM
>> Hi Benjamin,
>>
>> Normally we create new mailing lists when the new list has
>> a narrow
>> focus and covers a clearly unoccupied niche.  In this case
>> you're
>> proposing a list that is very broad, and so I think it
>> needs discussion
>> amongst the community before we create the list, so that we
>> can keep a
>> consistent strategy.
>>
>> That's not to say that I disagree with your proposal.
>> But it doesn't
>> seem immediately clear what the focus would be, and why
>> haskell-cafe
>> shouldn't serve the purpose.  One thing that isn't
>> clear is whether the
>> list you're proposing is for people interested in
>> *teaching* Haskell (in
>> which case I'd say it's a great idea), or people
>> *learning* Haskell (in
>> which case I'd consider carefully whether haskell-cafe
>> shoudn't be
>> serving that need).  That's something you need to
>> clarify when proposing
>> this list to the community.
>>
>> So I suggest you send this proposal out to
>> haskell <at> haskell.org in the
>> first instance, and see what response you get.  Discussion
>> should move
>> to haskell-cafe quickly.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> 	Simon
>>
>> Benjamin L. Russell wrote:
>>> Greetings,
>>>
>>> John Peterson suggested that I send you an e-mail
>> message requesting you to perform set-up of a new
>> Haskell-related mailing list that I plan to
>> moderate/administrate, since he said that you are the
>> administrator of the mailing lists on Haskell.org.
>>>
>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am interested in
>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I plan to call
>> Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to non-research
>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by the
>> philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible to
>> non-computer science major students.
>>>
>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other mailing
>> lists.  I have regularly read both Haskell and Haskell-Cafe
>> for the past six months or so, but the former is devoted to
>> announcements, and the latter de facto to research matters.
>> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly academic
>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this creates an
>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer science majors
>> interested in learning Haskell.
>>>
>>> Since John Peterson recommended that I request you to
>> set-up the mailing list on Haskell.org, could you please
>> set it whenever you have free time, as follows:
>>>
>>> Name of Mailing List:  Haskell-Edu
>>> E-mail Address:        haskell-edu <at> haskell.org
>>> Description:           The Haskell-Edu Mailing List:
>> Discussion About Non-research Issues on Haskell in
>> Education
>>>
>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to do to
>> start this mailing list?  Should I host it on haskell.org,
>> or just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org mailing
>> list service?  Also, how should I have it listed in the
>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists"
>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for the
>> benefit of other members of the Haskell community?
>>>
>>> Thank you very much for your time and cooperation.
>>>
>>> Sincerely yours,
>>>
>>> Benjamin L. Russell
>>>
>>> --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Peterson
>> <jpeterson <at> western.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> From: John Peterson <jpeterson <at> western.edu>
>>>> Subject: RE: on starting a new Haskell-related
>> mailing list
>>>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell"
>> <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com>
>>>> Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 12:05 AM
>>>> Hi Benjamin,
>>>>
>>>> There's no problem starting a new mailing
>> list.  Simon
>>>> Marlow is the administrator of our lists - if you
>> drop him
>>>> and email he'll do the setup for Haskell.org.
>> Once the
>>>> list is going, you can go into the wiki and add it
>> to the
>>>> appropriate pages.
>>>>
>>>> We've had a bunch of these special interest
>> lists and
>>>> most of them go dead after a few months but you
>> never know
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   John
>>>
>>> --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Benjamin L. Russell
>> <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> From: Benjamin L. Russell
>> <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com>
>>>> Subject: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing
>> list
>>>> To: "John Peterson"
>> <jpeterson <at> western.edu>
>>>> Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 4:37 PM
>>>> Greetings,
>>>>
>>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am
>> interested in
>>>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I
>> plan to
>>>> call Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to
>> non-research
>>>> beginner-level educational matters, guided by the
>>>> philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible
>> to
>>>> non-computer science major students.  (This
>> message is
>>>> being addressed to you because I had already sent
>> the
>>>> portion below twice to other administrators at
>> Haskell.org,
>>>> first to mailman-owner <at> haskell.org, and then to
>>>> simonmarhaskell <at> gmail.com, but had not received a
>> response
>>>> on either occasion.)
>>>>
>>>> This topic is not covered by any of the other
>> mailing
>>>> lists.  I have regularly read both Haskell and
>> Haskell-Cafe
>>>> for the past six months or so, but the former is
>> devoted to
>>>> announcements, and the latter de facto to research
>> matters.
>>>> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly
>> academic
>>>> and research-oriented, and I feel that this
>> creates an
>>>> unnecessary learning curve for non-computer
>> science majors
>>>> interested in learning Haskell.
>>>>
>>>> Could you please advise me on what I need to do to
>> start
>>>> this mailing list?  Should I host it on
>> haskell.org, or
>>>> just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org
>> mailing
>>>> list service?  Also, how should I have it listed
>> in the
>>>> "www.haskell.org Mailing Lists"
>>>> (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for
>> the
>>>> benefit of other members of the Haskell community?
>>>>
>>>> Thank you very much for your time and cooperation.
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely yours,
>>>>
>>>> Benjamin L. Russell
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