Hi Benjamin.  I think this is a great idea, for all the reasons you mention.  Starting this fall I will be teaching a two-term computer music course based on Haskore and HasSound (Haskell libraries for computer music), and I would love to have an on-line forum that I could recommend to my students, some of whom will not be hard-core computer science majors.  Thanks for initiating this.

    -Paul Hudak


Benjamin L. Russell wrote:

So far, I have received three positive responses on starting the new Haskell-Edu mailing list, and no negative responses. In the latest response, the respondent suggested that I post another message to this mailing list advising readers on how to react. Basically, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, Simon Marlow, had originally suggested that I ask for feedback on my idea from this mailing list, and wait for the discussion to proceed to Haskell-Cafe, so for those interested in this idea, please respond either in this thread or, after a few rounds, in Haskell-Cafe on whether you agree, disagree, feel neutral, or have mixed feelings regarding this idea. In any case, as the above-mentioned respondent suggested, rapid responses to questions on the new mailing list will probably prove vital to keeping it alive. Participation by educators using Haskell, once Haskell-Edu is started, would be most welcome. Please post your responses initially in this thread. After a few rounds, this discussion will probably move to Haskell-Cafe. -- Benjamin L. Russell --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Benjamin L. Russell <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Benjamin L. Russell <dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com> Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu, a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list To: "The Haskell Mailing List" <haskell <at> haskell.org> Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 8:37 PM I am interested in starting a new mailing list on Haskell.org, aimed mainly at liberal arts teachers and elementary-level learners of Haskell, called "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational Mailing List." This new mailing list would be guided by the principle that Haskell is useful not just in research, but also in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts education, on a par with Scheme. When I suggested the idea of this mailing list to Simon Marlow, the Haskell.org mailing list administrator, he suggested that I post this idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am posting it here to ask for feedback. The main purposes of this new (proposed) mailing list would be as follows: 1) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion forum to serve the needs of users wishing to focus on the uses of Haskell in education, such as in high school and in introductory computer science college courses, as opposed to in research. 2) To provide a primarily non-research-oriented discussion forum to serve the needs of non-computer-science students of Haskell who wish to focus on Haskell as a language for learning programming as part of a well-rounded a liberal arts education, as opposed to an engineering/mathematics/science-oriented education. Currently, there are two main Haskell mailing lists: a) The Haskell Mailing List, currently used mainly for announcements and for non-beginner discussions b) The Haskell-Cafe, currently ostensibly used for everything else, but in fact used primarily for serious academic computer-science research-oriented discussion of the language Haskell. Neither mailing list addresses Haskell as a tool for teaching functional programming as part of a liberal arts education, and while The Haskell Cafe is ostensibly responsible for addressing beginner questions, I have witnessed several instances in which new users who were not familiar with the academic culture of The Haskell Cafe have been frowned upon for either posting messages that did not assume enough mathematical background, or for posting messages that were written in a tongue-in-cheek style, and that therefore did not fit into the serious tone of the mailing list. (For example, a few months ago, one poster received a private e-mail message from another poster asking the former not to "pollute" The Haskell-Cafe Mailing List for assuming that screen pixel resolution was somehow related to the precision of an algorithm that picked points randomly from a square in approximating pi. Avoiding this question required the knowledge that screen resolution could be considered independently from the precision of the algorithm itself, but while this point may be elementary to mathematicians and researchers, the poster was not familiar enough with the issue to grasp this immediately, and received the above-mentioned response.) This new mailing list is intended to cover both the issue of teaching Haskell as part of a liberal arts curriculum, and of answering beginner questions about Haskell from students who may not have a sophisticated mathematics background. The primary audience of this new mailing list would be educators and students in a liberal arts curriculum who are interested in studying Haskell for studying functional programming. Currently, the language Scheme is often used in this context (even though Scheme is not a true functional programming language), but Haskell has recently been gaining ground rapidly as a programming language in industry as well, and many students of Haskell may either not have a computer science background, or may not have a sophisticated mathematical background. Posts from such users may tend to irritate serious researchers, who are impatient and hard-pressed for time to find valuable information to aid their research, but may be welcome in a more education-focused context. It would seem that creating a new mailing list, Haskell-Edu, focusing on using Haskell in teaching programming in a liberal arts context, and fielding questions from students in that context, would help increase the scope of Haskell users, and help spread knowledge about Haskell to potential future users in industry. Teachers in a liberal arts curriculum could discuss teaching Haskell in a non-research context, and students of Haskell with a liberal arts-related background would be able to ask elementary questions to educators willing to discuss such questions, without being expected to have a sophisticated mathematical or computer science background. -- Benjamin L. Russell --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Simon Marlow <marlowsd <at> gmail.com> wrote:

From: Simon Marlow <marlowsd <at> gmail.com> Subject: Re: on starting a new Haskell-related mailing

list

To: "Benjamin L. Russell"

<dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com>

Cc: "John Peterson"

<jpeterson <at> western.edu>

Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:20 AM Hi Benjamin, Normally we create new mailing lists when the new list

has

a narrow focus and covers a clearly unoccupied niche. In this

case

you're proposing a list that is very broad, and so I think it needs discussion amongst the community before we create the list, so

that we

can keep a consistent strategy. That's not to say that I disagree with your

proposal.

But it doesn't seem immediately clear what the focus would be, and

why

haskell-cafe shouldn't serve the purpose. One thing that

isn't

clear is whether the list you're proposing is for people interested in *teaching* Haskell (in which case I'd say it's a great idea), or

people

*learning* Haskell (in which case I'd consider carefully whether

haskell-cafe

shoudn't be serving that need). That's something you need to clarify when proposing this list to the community. So I suggest you send this proposal out to haskell <at> haskell.org in the first instance, and see what response you get.

Discussion

should move to haskell-cafe quickly. Cheers, Simon Benjamin L. Russell wrote:

Greetings, John Peterson suggested that I send you an e-mail

message requesting you to perform set-up of a new Haskell-related mailing list that I plan to moderate/administrate, since he said that you are the administrator of the mailing lists on Haskell.org.

My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am

interested in

starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which I plan

to call

Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to non-research beginner-level educational matters, guided by the philosophy that Haskell should be more accessible to non-computer science major students.

This topic is not covered by any of the other

mailing

lists. I have regularly read both Haskell and

Haskell-Cafe

for the past six months or so, but the former is

devoted to

announcements, and the latter de facto to research

matters.

Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is overly

academic

and research-oriented, and I feel that this creates an unnecessary learning curve for non-computer science

majors

interested in learning Haskell.

Since John Peterson recommended that I request

you to

set-up the mailing list on Haskell.org, could you

please

set it whenever you have free time, as follows:

Name of Mailing List: Haskell-Edu E-mail Address: haskell-edu <at> haskell.org Description: The Haskell-Edu Mailing

List:

Discussion About Non-research Issues on Haskell in Education

Could you please advise me on what I need to do

to

start this mailing list? Should I host it on

haskell.org,

or just start it by myself using a non-Haskell.org

mailing

list service? Also, how should I have it listed in

the

"www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for the benefit of other members of the Haskell community?

Thank you very much for your time and

cooperation.

Sincerely yours, Benjamin L. Russell --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Peterson

<jpeterson <at> western.edu> wrote:

From: John Peterson

<jpeterson <at> western.edu>

Subject: RE: on starting a new

Haskell-related

mailing list

To: "Benjamin L. Russell"

<dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com>

Date: Friday, June 27, 2008, 12:05 AM Hi Benjamin, There's no problem starting a new mailing

list. Simon

Marlow is the administrator of our lists - if

you

drop him

and email he'll do the setup for

Haskell.org.

Once the

list is going, you can go into the wiki and

add it

to the

appropriate pages. We've had a bunch of these special

interest

lists and

most of them go dead after a few months but

you

never know

... John

--- On Thu, 6/26/08, Benjamin L. Russell

<dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Benjamin L. Russell

<dekudekuplex <at> yahoo.com>

Subject: on starting a new Haskell-related

mailing

list

To: "John Peterson"

<jpeterson <at> western.edu>

Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008, 4:37 PM Greetings, My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and I am

interested in

starting a new mailing list on Haskell, which

I

plan to

call Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to

non-research

beginner-level educational matters, guided by

the

philosophy that Haskell should be more

accessible

to

non-computer science major students. (This

message is

being addressed to you because I had already

sent

the

portion below twice to other administrators

at

Haskell.org,

first to mailman-owner <at> haskell.org, and then

to

simonmarhaskell <at> gmail.com, but had not

received a

response

on either occasion.) This topic is not covered by any of the other

mailing

lists. I have regularly read both Haskell

and

Haskell-Cafe

for the past six months or so, but the former

is

devoted to

announcements, and the latter de facto to

research

matters.

Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe is

overly

academic

and research-oriented, and I feel that this

creates an

unnecessary learning curve for non-computer

science majors

interested in learning Haskell. Could you please advise me on what I need to

do to

start

this mailing list? Should I host it on

haskell.org, or

just start it by myself using a

non-Haskell.org

mailing

list service? Also, how should I have it

listed

in the

"www.haskell.org Mailing Lists" (http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo)

page for

the

benefit of other members of the Haskell

community?

Thank you very much for your time and

cooperation.

Sincerely yours, Benjamin L. Russell

_______________________________________________ Haskell mailing list Haskell <at> haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell

_______________________________________________ Haskell mailing list Haskell <at> haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell

_______________________________________________
Haskell mailing list
Haskell <at> haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell