On 01/11/2008, at 9:44 PM, Mike Schinkel wrote:

> Second, hasn't it been obvious with the explosion of social media
> that over
> time the vast majority of content published on the web will be
> published by
> people using a server they do not control? Forums, Blog hosting,
> Facebook,
> LinkedIn, etc. etc. etc.

Yes, but consider how little HTML is allowed by most of these, and
why...

> Plenty do but more do not, and many people on forums, blog posts and
> mailing
> lists recommend to others not to do so because of the performance
> cost. The
> cost of round trips has been used as a reason against certain web
> architectures such as in discussions of ROBOTS.TXT and 303.
>
> Most notably people who write about web performance optimization who
> happen
> to work for your employer recommend against doing so:
>
> http://developer.yahoo.com/performance/rules.html#redirects
> http://developer.yahoo.com/performance/rules.html#num_http

Of course; the point I was trying to make is that avoiding a roundtrip
isn't going to motivate a whole new technology, at least one that's so
specialised.

> BTW, the only person I've gotten resistance from on this besides
> Hixie is
> you... :)

True, and if you're in a position to get your proposal accepted and
implemented, I'll be the last to get in your way.

> But that misses the point; the most compelling use-cases are for where
> Javascript isn't available!

If you define it as declarative markup and implement it for the
browsing case with JavaScript, non-JS clients (e.g., robots) can still
use the declarative markup, if they're aware of it.

> So would it help if I could show you numerous examples where people
> are
> using Javascript to accomplish this with forms? Would that be the
> "pain" you
> are looking for?
>
> That said, what about the pain of not being able to crawl forms that
> use
> Javascript for this? Isn't that a compelling use case?

I think I'll stop typing and listen to what others have to say.

> As an aside, I'd be interested in any reference you have that I can
> read up
> on "standard's theory."

Carl Cargill did a good job in "Open Systems Standardization":
http://www.amazon.com/Open-Systems-Standardization-Business-Approach/dp/0132683199/

Cheers (and good night),

--
Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/

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