Michael Tuexen | 5 Feb 2004 13:01
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Re: M3UA version control

Brian,

you disagree with the change? This means you want to have an
error ONLY returned for ASP-Up messages as the RFC states?

I'm suggesting a change that it is returned for all messages.

Best regards
Michael

On Feb 5, 2004, at 12:33 PM, Brian F. G. Bidulock wrote:

> Michael,
>
> I missed that.  And, therefore, disagree with the change.  An error
> must be returned for any message with an unsupported version, not
> just ASP Up, as the RFC already states.  The example case was in
> my last mail.
>
> --brian
>
> Michael Tuexen wrote:                                                  
>             (Thu, 05 Feb 2004 12:24:07)
>> Brian,
>>
>> part of my suggestion is to replace:
>>
>>      If an ASP Up message with an unsupported version is received, the
>>
>> with
>>
>>      If a message with an unsupported version is received, the
>>
>> At least for me, this does change the requested behaviour.
>>
>> Best regards
>> Michael
>>
>> On Feb 5, 2004, at 11:30 AM, Brian F. G. Bidulock wrote:
>>
>>> Michael,
>>>
>>> I don't think that your proposed text takes us any farther towards
>>> that goal.  You have changed "assumed that" to "likely that the
>>> message having an unsupported version is an ASP Up message and
>>> therefore [likely] that".
>>>
>>> This is just description.  The requirement is (unchanged):
>>>
>>>> If a message with an unsupported version is received, the
>>>> receiving end responds with an Error message, indicating the version
>>>> the receiving node supports and notifies Layer Management.
>>>
>>> This is obviously any message.
>>>
>>> As there is no change to the requirement, the new text is 
>>> superfluous.
>>>
>>> Regardless of likelihoods or assumptions, the Error message is
>>> returned to any message received with an unsupported version and 
>>> Layer
>>> Management is notified.  Suggesting that it is likely that an ASP Up
>>> is the cause, actually distracts from the requirement to return the
>>> error to any message.
>>>
>>> A node might actually send message Foo with Version=100 to test a
>>> remote node's support for message Foo (only available in Version=100)
>>> while performing the ASP Up and ASP Active procedures using 
>>> Version=1.
>>> This requirement provides that message Foo will be retured with an
>>> "usupported version" if version 100 is not supported (and obviously
>>> the message Foo is not supported).
>>>
>>> It would be better to strike the line starting with "Because", 
>>> because
>>> it was superfluous to begin with.  Changing assumptions to 
>>> likelihoods
>>> does not increase its pertinence.
>>>
>>> --brian
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael Tuexen wrote:
>>>             (Thu, 05 Feb 2004 10:17:40)
>>>> Brian,
>>>>
>>>> I agree with you that there are a lot of places which are not
>>>> very precisely (this is the same with other RFCs) but this
>>>> question came up multiple times. Others not. That is why I'm
>>>> asking to clarify this.
>>>>
>>>> I know about customers and testers who test exactly this and
>>>> always ask: what is the correct behaviour. So what is the
>>>> problem in making this clear? Think about having different
>>>> customers requesting different implementations?
>>>>
>>>> Best regards
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 4, 2004, at 11:46 PM, Brian F. G. Bidulock wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think you need to read the RFC from the viewpoint of a
>>>>> specification
>>>>> instead of the viewpoint of an implementation.  When it says
>>>>> "assumed"
>>>>> it means "assumed [by the authors in the specification of the
>>>>> protocol]"
>>>>> and not "assumed [by the implementation]".
>>>>>
>>>>> There are many place in the RFC where this is the case, because of
>>>>> the
>>>>> editors' preference for words like "assumed".  If we are to correct
>>>>> the lazy
>>>>> English in the document, it would require an extensive rewrite.
>>>>>
>>>>> --brian
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael Tuexen wrote:
>>>>>             (Wed, 04 Feb 2004 21:56:43)
>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the RFC describes that an M3UA endpoint should check the version
>>>>>> field
>>>>>> for ASP Up messages and leaves it unspecified how other messages
>>>>>> should
>>>>>> be handled.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In real scenarios the first message having an unsupported message 
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> most likely an ASP-Up message, but my experience is, that people
>>>>>> testing
>>>>>> implementations always ask how these other messages should be
>>>>>> handled.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Therefore I would like to suggest a clarification in the IG 
>>>>>> clearly
>>>>>> stating how these other messages with an unsupported version 
>>>>>> should
>>>>>> be handled.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We can specify that it is checked for all messages or only for
>>>>>> ASP-Up
>>>>>> messages, ignoring the version field for non ASP-Up messages.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The easiest solution seems to be (for me) to check the field for
>>>>>> all messages. So you could write
>>>>>>
>>>>>> if (message->version != 1)
>>>>>>    send(error)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> instead of
>>>>>>
>>>>>> if ((message->class == 3) && (message->type == 1) &&
>>>>>> (message->(message->version != 1))
>>>>>>    send(error)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Therefore I suggest to include the following text in the IG.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards
>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <---- SNIP
>>>>>> 3.28 Version Control
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3.28.1 Description of the problem
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The RFC describes how ASP Up messages with an unsupported version
>>>>>> are handled but leaves it unspecified how other messages should be
>>>>>> handled if the version number is not supported.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3.28.2 Text changes to the document
>>>>>>     ---------
>>>>>>     Old text: (Section 4.3.4.1.1)
>>>>>>     ---------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4.3.4.1.1 M3UA Version Control
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     If an ASP Up message with an unsupported version is received,
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>     receiving end responds with an Error message, indicating the
>>>>>> version
>>>>>>     the receiving node supports and notifies Layer Management.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     This is useful when protocol version upgrades are being
>>>>>> performed
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>     a network.  A node upgraded to a newer version should support
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>     older versions used on other nodes it is communicating with.
>>>>>> Because
>>>>>>     ASPs initiate the ASP Up procedure it is assumed that the 
>>>>>> Error
>>>>>>     message would normally come from the SGP.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     ---------
>>>>>>     New text: (Section 4.3.4.1.1)
>>>>>>     ---------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4.3.4.1.1 M3UA Version Control
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     If a message with an unsupported version is received, the
>>>>>>     receiving end responds with an Error message, indicating the
>>>>>> version
>>>>>>     the receiving node supports and notifies Layer Management.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     This is useful when protocol version upgrades are being
>>>>>> performed
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>     a network.  A node upgraded to a newer version should support
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>     older versions used on other nodes it is communicating with.
>>>>>> Because
>>>>>>     ASPs initiate the ASP Up procedure it is likely that the 
>>>>>> message
>>>>>> having
>>>>>>     an unsupported version is an ASP Up message and therefore that
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Error
>>>>>>     message would normally come from the SGP.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3.28.3 Solution description
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The new text clearly describes that the version should be checked
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> all
>>>>>> messages.
>>>>>> <---- SNIP
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Sigtran mailing list
>>>>>> Sigtran <at> ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sigtran
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Brian F. G. Bidulock
>>>>> bidulock <at> openss7.org
>>>>> http://www.openss7.org/
>>>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Brian F. G. Bidulock
>>> bidulock <at> openss7.org
>>> http://www.openss7.org/
>>>
>
> -- 
> Brian F. G. Bidulock
> bidulock <at> openss7.org
> http://www.openss7.org/
>

Gmane