1 Dec 2011 07:01
Re: what level of overshoot is acceptalbe
How exactly are you measuring the overshoot? Active probes? Or is this just in simulation. -Hithesh -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@... [mailto:si-list-bounce@...] On Behalf Of WANG Zhenwei Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 11:28 AM To: ERIK KUNDRO; si-list@... Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: what level of overshoot is acceptalbe Hi Erik, i very understand. my boss want a warrant that no different between primary chip and the secondary chip, espectially in SI. but the measurement on overshooting exceeds 25%, which peak is exceed to 4V(flash was power 3.3V). the result is very bad. so my question is what level of overshoot is acceptable? that is the history. BR Zhenwei Wang ------------------------------------------------------------------ ALCATEL-LUCENT APAC ENTERPRISE ENGINEERING AND DEVELOPMENT CENTER T: +86 21 6182 4420 M: +86 13671886168 Zhenwei.Wang@... ------------------------------------------------------------------ ________________________________ From: ERIK KUNDRO [mailto:kundro85@...] Sent: 2011Äê12ÔÂ1ÈÕ 13:49 To: si-list@...; WANG Zhenwei Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] what level of overshoot is acceptalbe I guess you can look at it as 12% above Vcc. Just be careful not to assume its always 12%. If your Vcc was slightly less or slightly more... it could be 10% or 13% because the ration relative to 0.4V would change. Basically, if your Vcc is 3.3V, then you can experience up to 3.7V of overshoot for no more than 20ns. Very important to keep the 20ns in mind. If you see 3.7000V last for 21ns, then its too much. If you cross the 3.7V threshold, even for an instant, then you violate the spec... Ideally, you should not go above VIH, which you said was Vcc+0.3V or in this case 3.6V assuming a Vcc of 3.3V. I always like to be conservative like that. Keep in mind that overshoot can vary from board to board and part to part depending on processes variance of the IO drivers. So if you are close already, I would take steps to remove the overshoot because the next board or part could have more or less overshoot. If you are getting overshoot on some signals, add series resistors at the signal source to squelch the overshoot. You may have to play around with the resistor value (I'd start with 25¦¸), but at some point that resistor should remove the overshoot and you should get a near textbook waveform. If you have a signal integrity simulation tool, you can get the IBIS models and simulate the interface while experimenting with various series resistor values. Just be aware that the series resistors may slow down the rising edges of the signal and cause timing errors if you slow them down too much. Erik M. Kundro --- On Wed, 11/30/11, WANG Zhenwei <Zhenwei.Wang@...> wrote: From: WANG Zhenwei <Zhenwei.Wang@...> Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] what level of overshoot is acceptalbe To: "ERIK KUNDRO" <kundro85@...>, si-list@... Date: Wednesday, November 30, 2011, 10:51 PM Hi Rrik, thanks for quick response. if i am not misunderstanding you description, the acceptable overshoot is less than 0.4V/vcc, which is 0.4v/3.3v% in my project. am i right? BR Zhenwei Wang ------------------------------------------------------------------ ALCATEL-LUCENT APAC ENTERPRISE ENGINEERING AND DEVELOPMENT CENTER T: +86 21 6182 4420 M: +86 13671886168 Zhenwei.Wang@... ------------------------------------------------------------------ ________________________________ From: ERIK KUNDRO [mailto:kundro85@...] Sent: 2011Äê12ÔÂ1ÈÕ 10:50 To: si-list@...; WANG Zhenwei Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] what level of overshoot is acceptalbe Hello, I think you are over thinking the problem. The spec says max overshoot is vcc+ 0.4V for 20ns or less. Vcc being the actual Vcc the part is seeing at the moment of overshoot... NOT the max the part can tolerate. So, if your Vcc at the part is 3.3V, then the max overshoot your can tolerate is 3.3V+0.4V=3.7V. For 20ns or less. The instant you cross the 3.7V threshold, you violate the spec... not matter how brief. If your Vcc at the part is 3.4V, then the max overshoot your can tolerate is 3.4V+0.4V=3.8V. For 20ns or less.The instant you cross the 3.8V threshold, you violate the spec... not matter how brief. If your Vcc at the part is 3.0V, then the max overshoot your can tolerate is 3.0V+0.4V=3.4V. For 20ns or less.The instant you cross the 3.4V threshold, you violate the spec... not matter how brief. Call the manufacturer of the part for clarification if you are not sure how to interpret this. An FAE should be able to get you the answer. Erik M. Kundro --- On Wed, 11/30/11, WANG Zhenwei <Zhenwei.Wang@...> wrote: From: WANG Zhenwei <Zhenwei.Wang@...> Subject: [SI-LIST] what level of overshoot is acceptalbe To: si-list@... Date: Wednesday, November 30, 2011, 8:13 PM Hi guys, I have a problem: what level of overshoot is acceptable? I was ordered to qualify a new nand flash on my project. There are an signal integrity measurement on overshooting. Some info form spec of nand: 1. power supply:3.3V, so the ideal logic high is 3.3V. 2. max power : 3.6V 3. Input High Voltage VIH: 2.0~ VCC +0.3; Input Low Voltage VIL, -0.3~0.8 3. NOTE : 1) VIL can undershoot to -0.4V and VIH can overshoot to VCC + 0.4V for durations of 20 ns or less. So my formula is : The max acceptable overshoot=(max power + 0.4V )/( ideal logic high )=(3.6V + 0.4V)/3.3V!%. Am I right? BR Zhenwei Wang ------------------------------------------------------------------ ALCATEL-LUCENT APAC ENTERPRISE ENGINEERING AND DEVELOPMENT CENTER Zhenwei.Wang@... ------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@... with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@... with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@... with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@... with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@... with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@... with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
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